This is a dialogue I had on Stormfront, the white nationalist forum, with a man who uses the screen name Unconditioned Canuck. He started a thread by posting these links, from which followed the dialogue below:
Transpersonal psychology, Integral psychology, Ken Wilber
Unconditioned Canuck: The nice thing about Integral Theory is that the ethnocentric stage is a recognized stage in one’s development!
Of course, you’re supposed to move on to a universal outlook ~ which, I hope we all do… but, ethnocentricism is certainly a vital stage in development towards greater consciousness. . . . You need to have your smaller mass of trusted community before you feel ready to diplomatically join the larger mass. After everything is said and done and you have “transcended” to the universal outlook stage, IMO, there’s nothing wrong with continuing to identify and associate with your ethnic community.
JosephRex: I feel this is an excellent perspective, and goes beyond Wilber in that he does not affirm ethnocentrism or, for that matter, any of the “earlier/lower” stages in his spectrum of consciousness. When I read his book Integral Spirituality I formed a critical perspective on many aspects of it, though acknowledging the positive value of the overall opus. Here’s a chart from this book:
Wilber’s point of view uncritically incorporates the modern Western concept of progress, and carries it to a postmodern extreme in that he believes he and his fellow illuministas have undergone a spiritual evolution beyond all traditional cultures, religions, and esoteric systems. Personally I feel that Hindu philosophy was and continues to be the most advanced and sophisticated metascience, compared to which Wilberism is a pipsqueak upstart. Yet he categorizes Hinduism as merely a “mythic” system, i.e. way down in the amber range of the spectrum.
Furthermore, Wilber’s system is clearly framed within the liberal Zeitgeist and perpetrates many of its parochial conditioned beliefs ~ precisely the kind of stuff that higher enlightenment is supposed to have outgrown. E.g., when you attain a POV that transcends all given cultures, regionalisms, etc., this does NOT imply a globalist metapolitical agenda, yet for Wilber & Co. it does ~ and they take it utterly for granted. In a more basic scale of development than that given on the chart, Wilber says that people develop from an egocentric to an ethnocentric to a “worldcentric” perspective ~ in which that last stage features a one-world one-family-of humanity belief-system. Not enlightened at all, IMHO, in that they have no self-awareness of it as such. I think your addendum that we should still appreciate and celebrate our particular ethnicity and preserve our smaller community is a crucial caveat.
Canuck: I have experienced some fantastic phenomena: thudding in walls, cracking lights, and various other phenomena, in synchronicity with my inner voice… “signs from Something” in other words.
An atheist throughout my life, I finally had to conclude there was Something invisible that can seemingly read my mind, and manipulate the environment around me as though it were a hologram. It helped me whenever I was completely alone and on the brink, whatever It is.
The main question I want answered now is: what is It, really? Why isn’t there scientific evidence for It yet?
JosephRex: Because material science operates wholly within the orange and lower bands of Wilber’s chart in my above post, whereas IT and the related phenomona (actually numena) you describe are all in the higher reaches of the spectrum.
Canuck [He passed over my preceding remark and reiterated:] My beef with all these psychologist/philosopher/spiritualist writers, and for that matter, every religious person, is that while they mention the realm of the spiritual and might use the word God, there’s no evidence for any of It. Thus what they write and say, be it the Bible, or Eckhart Tolle who mentions God, becomes complete jibberish. This is the issue today.
The only thing that will convince someone there’s Something there is EVIDENCE from the Something. And that is a path one must take alone.
JosephRex: In which band of the spectrum would you prefer your evidence? ORANGE: modern material science willfully limits its paradigm to the physical universe as perceived by the senses. Spiritually enlightened scientists know that this is an arbitrary choice which excludes vast tracts of reality. Unfortunately the majority of people who are imprinted from birth with this paradigm don’t know this, so they become atheists. “Scientific evidence” in this paradigm is limited to the physical portion of reality, and excludes by definition anything in the other portions ~ like that ‘Something’ you’re talking about. So if this is the kind of evidence you’re hoping for, I predict it will be a long time coming.
GREEN: This is the first layer of reality beyond the newtonian-dualistic hard-matter paradigm, where finer senses develop and humans begin to perceive the deeper portions of reality and the subtle processes beyond cause and effect. I suspect this is the layer you tapped into when you began to have certain experiences:
[I quoted Canuck‘s earlier statement:] thudding in walls, cracking lights, and various other phenomena, in synchronicity with my inner voice… “signs from Something” in other words.
JosephRex: This is green-band evidence, IMHO. If so, then what you may actually be looking for now is evidence in the higher bands, symbolized on the chart by the colors teal, turquoise, etc. But if you’re so adamantly convinced in advance that no such evidence exists, then you’ll be guaranteed to not see it when it turns up. Upper-spectrum evidence is very different from orange-science evidence, but just as conclusive in its own field, in fact even more so. It can certainly be found by following the path alone, as you say, and I wish you well on it. But individuals who have found this evidence are able to communicate about it between and among themselves ~ subjective evidence becomes intersubjective, and begins to operate in a manner more consistent and real than objective evidence, which is merely physical. Such communication about these realities will tend to sound like gibberish to people who are not tuned into the bandwidth. The choice is to turn it off with preconceptions and denial, or to keep an open mind and maybe experiment by turning the dial a bit now and then. You mentioned that you have never meditated, but this is the bottom-line basic method for tuning into those higher bands. There are lots of other ways too.
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From here the conversation tailed off into other areas, but I feel that the above makes some vital points relevant to further discourse.
The Kin of Aries 
Thanks for putting a handle on the spout of Ken Wilber’s protracted dialectic “IT
.”
Yeah, his faucet just keeps running & running & running…
For most people who write about this stuff you can tell whether or not their spout is connected to the Source because it includes some accounts of first-hand experience, emotionally nuanced. But I’ve never come across that in Wilber, and he’s shmart enough to fake the rest.
Touche!
This is in reply to Zen Sleth, with whom I’ve been exchanging comments on Faust is Dead. I contraposed genuine esoteric knowledge to imagination or belief, to which he replied:
From my vantage point this is a statement of subjective reality but not an objective reality. If it is truly a fact than you must try and forgive me because no one has yet to my knowledge, (or belief even), produced evidence of such Knowledge.
Zen, you can see that the above post is a conversation between me and another person who also wanted evidence for It, as he called it. My reply was in reference to the chart, which I feel exactly answers the question, or at least adds another dimension to the dialogue. Canuck didn’t grok it, though he later expressed gratitude to me for this and other conversations. But my impression of you is that you’ve got lots more neurons firing away up there, so I’m optimistic! At least for the grok if not for agreement.
You can see that scientific objective evidence can only be had for phenomena up through the orange band of the spectrum. It’s the limit of the material world as perceived by the physical senses and interpreted by the rational-logical mind. If there was a claim of such evidence for anything in the higher regions shown on the chart, it would be guaranteed to be false, a literal oxymoron. So what you’re after does not exist and is impossible.
However, please note that I went on to say that it is in fact possible to attain evidence of higher-band realities, but the evidence itself has to be in those higher bandwidths ~ i.e. it transcends orange-band scientific-rational objectivity.
Joseph,
I get the map and I understand that it is a metric of the terrain experienced by many but what I wonder is how it relates to objective reality verses subjective reality.
Suppose the following experiment:
Two advanced souls with the ability to connect on the astral plane. They are isolated from each other in controlled environments yet agree to make extra physical contact. Before entering the astral plane one is told to deliver the message “Mercury”. I use this because it requires no words or colors. The symbol can be passed fairly easily, I should think, and any who attained the level of master would recognize the planetary symbol for ‘Mercury”. In binary Uni Code it is simply: 11100010:10011000:10111111 and the image symbol is only a cross tailed circle with little horns. Either way it is far less than a Monroeian Rote. They can use word, image or number. I care not as long as the information moves from one to the other.
If a common astral plane exists and contact and communication is possible upon this plane than these masters should have no difficulty demonstrating this by the message recipient delivering the message to the handlers after the astral jaunt. If this common plane does not exist than “Arrhh matie, I think the map be tripe!”
Success does not prove the map, only that somehow they bypassed conventional mundane communication, yet does go a long way to validate their position and proves their ability to act external of the mundane constraints entwining the rest of us mere mortals.
Because they can do it I will sit up and pay attention. At this point I wont give a darn how it works, only that it does and I want to do it.
To my knowledge this has never been demonstrated under any sort of controlled and monitored environment. The claim is made daily and like Mulder said in season 10, “I want to believe, but evidence has been hard to come by.” This is the position of many. Some ‘experiencers’, like myself, have wondered if our ‘experiences’ are not some artifact of the function of the mind and or brain. The brain is a biological computer and communicator and it’s interior conceptual landscape might have nothing to do with the exterior world whatsoever. Especially the non-physical realms.
Back to the experiment:
Failure means one of the following:
They cant do it
It cant be done
They failed to do it this time.
If they can’t bring home the bacon then how can they bring back the knowledge that they did it?
Spirit, sub and the super conscious seems to speak in symbols so this test seems right in the wheel house.
If one cannot move even this simple bit of information then how can one state with any conviction that the terrain exists as anything other than a personal fiction, albeit a somewhat consensus one. In short, a subjective reality without objective reality. A fantasy. Our brains might create these landscapes the same as a video game utilizes a monitor. Yet unlike the modern computers these landscapes are not interconnected which is why messages cannot be reliably communicated. In this case the astral realm would be nothing other than a personal pre-monitor so to speak, with the mundane world being the public display.
This is the core of the matter that I wrestle with.
Hoping you have a solid answer,
Z
Zen, your experiment is laughable. You invoke Robert Monroe, but if you had even a passing familiarity with his first two books you would know that your piddling transmission has been exceeded exponentially. Vast amounts of information were shared by Monroe and later the many participants in the programs at his Institute whilst in OOB states, and communicated after the return. Extensive records and transcripts were kept, and the highlights are reported in a 60-page section of *Far Journeys*.
I’m extremely disappointed by your reply. It looks like I overestimated you. I really thought you could grasp the reality spectrum and make an open-minded response. If you did get it, then it’s even worse because you ignored it and just plowed on with your lower-band ego-trip. To clarify, here are some examples of the kind of response I was hoping for, in which you would step out of your paradigm hypothetically and consider the alternatives:
(1) Since the higher bands of the spectrum transcend subjective-objective dualism, how can I get a sense of those realities since my mind only operates in that dualistic mode?
(2) I grok the concept that upper-band realities can never be demonstrated under any sort of controlled and monitored environment in the physical world, i.e. orange band and lower. Though I don’t accept this myself, I acknowledge that millions of people of demonstrably high intelligence and good character are nevertheless absolutely certain that they have knowledge derived from those higher realities. So how can I get a handle on any of it except by belief or taking it on faith?
(3) You say that the upper bands have their own sort of evidence, different from the rational-logical dualistic evidence of material science. What’s that like, and how does it operate?
(4) How can I “go green” and higher on the spectrum myself?
So would you care to own of these questions, Zen? Or come up with an equivalently open-minded one yourself? I await hopefully, but am no longer optimistic that you can break out of your snug little box of 3 dimensions, even to hazard a fleeting hypothesis. It would be like a mind popping out of a steel trap. Or perhaps a computer simulation…
Joseph,
I did not ask any of the questions you desired I ask because you have not surmounted the most basic of hurdles. I avoid belly flops into kiddy pools and I don’t ask for financial advice from someone who fails to demonstrate evidence of wealth. Need I further elucidate my failure to abase myself at your feet upon multidimensional matters?
Your obfuscation of a simple test of proof is disappointing. I have read Monroe’s books but am also capable of comprehending that anyone can write a pack of lies. Or self delusions. He was never subjected to any external scrutiny and thus all of these claims are unsubstantiated and merely believed by believers. So being an honest seeker, I went to the Blue Ridge Mountains and the Monroe Institute to test the waters. The experience was enlightening and instructive yet created for me more questions than answers about the true nature of reality. That is because I don’t have a particular dogma to shore up. I’m selling nothing. My mind is open and it tends to wander afield asking questions. Your dogma seems to me a favored puppy you must protect at all costs.
Sadly you resorted to ad hominem attacks rather than refute the test itself in any intelligent way. Citing unverifiable results is not remotely scientific my friend, nor do you invalidate the test to even the most infantile ignoramus. Your argument is the Bible is true because it says so and so do the priests. I think I went beyond that around about the 2nd grade or so.
If you consider that I actually underwent the Gateway experience at the Monroe Institute, put my money and time where my mouth is, I would daresay I have more first hand knowledge about it than you. Or have you spent five days and nights training at the source with the people you elevate as examples? Are you qualified to speak about what actually goes on there? I have met and talked in person, face to face, with Joe McMoneagle, Skip, and one of Monroe’s daughters whose name I have forgotten. Apparently I was not blown away. I have no argument that something is going on with ‘all this stuff’, I just question the landscape. They, at least when I met with them, were investigators of the phenomenon. Not priests of the dogma. No one there performed anything even close to what was described in the books. Not the students, counselors, or trainers.
I can say emphatically that everything ‘extra ordinary’ which happened transpired completely in the subjective and that nothing during that time was objectively experienced in a shared manner. Sure, everyone drifted about ‘somewhere’, but none communicated or had a spiritual encounter which could not be explained by imagination. Honesty demands investigation of all possibilities to some degree. Anecdotal examples of previous travelers having shared experiences abounded. Just like the Golden Age. Ah, the good ol days! Where mere peasants never thought to peek behind the wizard’s curtain nor question the reality of the Emperor’s new cloths.
Did you know remote viewers can see the future, distant physical locations and events but cannot win the lottery because they cannot see numbers? That was Joe McMoneagle’s explanation when someone asked the question “why not win the Power Ball and get rich?” It should be pondered why this is so.
No doubt that the entire group was as crippled as I and that was why we failed. Alas, much like an beautiful and demanding dominatrix we handicapped the masters into performance anxiety.
I could have easily just bought everything that was sold, (and I did spend quite a few bucks), but under scrutiny there seemed to be a lot that just had to be blindly accepted. Were I seeking a religion that would have been awesome but I was seeking something else. I value hemi-sync meditation as a tool but not necessarily as a gateway to a distinct reality. It might only be a subjective experience within my brain or mind. I get everything you are saying but I also have the ability to raise simple and logical questions which generate slander and obfuscation more oft than reasonable and intelligent answers. Usually a clue about the ingredients or the products expiration date.
How about you my friend? I’ll set something on my office chair some night and you tell me what it is the next day. I have something in mind that is alleged to have potent juju. Around a dullard such as myself, in my domicile of ignorance, it should alight as a fusion powered glow stick twixt a pair of Nubian nudists. Even a glaucomic pilot wearing tinted goggles at night should be able to home in on this beacon. Hell, I’ll even pass along the GPS coordinates of my chair and open the shutters.
This way you can put your astral where you mouth is.
Oh, I digress into moronic humor which is a condition of the Faustians. Although…..
If you get it right I’ll sing your praise on this very forum. If you can’t do it you can’t astral travel, remote view or even operate a Harry Potter certified Cloak of Clairvoyance with any reliable skill. Hell, use horary astrology for all I care. Failure to launch means you can only flutter about in the world of delusional fantasy. If that floats your boat have at it baby! More Force to ya, Obi-Won. I’m seeking something else though.
I think the deal here is you are so vested in you ego’s belief in it’s personal gnosis that you are unable consider alternate possibilities. You have become rigid and ornery and single pointed in a specific dogma. You say that my experiment is laughable because it cannot be performed to success in any supervised environment, thus it must be ridiculed. Ju-ju tactics which should be beneath you. I agree that it is uncouth to ask someone playing Dungeons and Dragons to physically produce a magic missile but you say the dragons are real.
Oh well, I was not holding out much hope either. If Christopher Columbus had not found solid land he would have kept sailing and my crows nest is now calling out seaweed and shallows. So I’m upping anchor and sailing close to the wind.
Best Wishes my Quixotian Friend,
Too bad, Zen. It’s been a long, stimulating, interesting conversation. But I have to say I’m taken aback to find out that the respect I had for you was evidently not mutual. You’ve been playing some cards close to your chest.
I’m glad to get your in-person report on the Monroe Institute ~ extremely informative. But I feel you do them an injustice to include them in your failure, since they didn’t share your objective. Which, as I politely tried to explain above, is literally oxymoronic.
In all our extensive correspondence, I never said, intimated, hinted, or implied that I have any psychic powers or can go OOB. I never even referred to it except in relation to Monroe. So again you put your foot where your mouth is, along with all that time & money.
A half-century after the voyages of Columbus lots of folks in the boondocks of Europe still hadn’t about them. Often the first reaction when people brought news of a New World was that they must be crazy, liars, or self-deluded. When more people kept talking about it, usually the nobility, some peasants decided that their lords were preaching a strange new dogma in order to get their abasement and maybe collect tithes.
Happy sailing. Watch out for the edge of the world…
Hey Joe,
UC here. I occasionally internet search my avatar to see if I’m mentioned anywhere lol. Well, thanks for keepin’ it real, and creating this website to sustain the questions everyone wants answered.
I just wanted to follow up by saying I discovered Tom Campbell, a retired NASA physicist who was into the Monroe Institute at one point. He wrote “My Big TOE (Theory of Everything)”.
http://www.my-big-toe.com/
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tom+campbell+evidence+of+god
He’s done a great job at providing a “scientific” explanation for the full nature of our reality.
As a born and raised atheist, I really didn’t think God/cosmic consciousness/the possibility of the paranormal existed. Science technically has no evidence of such phenomena. Those experiences were my “scientific evidence”. My Christian ancestors might have said: “that’s the Holy Ghost”; using Tom Campbell’s language, I can say: “that’s the Larger Consciousness System” ;).
Thank you for your efforts Joe,
-UC
PS: I’d obviously like to put my real name down, but because my spiritual blogging was largely done on Stormfront, I can’t do that 😉 lol). Take care friend.
And BTW, I’ve included a link to your page here:
https://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?p=14164338&postcount=25
That thread is part of a formal blog I have on the subject here:
The British Faith and Church
https://www.stormfront.org/forum/blogs/u43554-e4257/
Thanks for checking in, Canuck! I’m glad you found something on your wavelength to confirm your experiences and expand your understanding.